Ever17

[pramit 22]

don't click if you haven't read the true ending of ever17, this will spoil everything

 

just wanted to discuss the ending of ever17(true end ofc). We all see the time paradox, and our protagonist(blick winkel,hokuto) has to go back once again to solve the equation.

 

However,imo, the time paradox should not have happened. Why? because the vn follows hugh everett many worlds interpretation, hence the paradox could not happened as it would be in a separate universe (just like steins gate).

Why do i say ever17 follows many world hypothesis?

First of all, the 4 routes that are all accessible to our 4th dimension being.

 

Second proof, in the true end the kid knows who sara is, meaning he is from sara route. Then in one dialogue he says that he is You's boyfriend in another world(or something like that)

 

I wish i could elaborate further, but i have played this vn a long time ago.

 

Edited November 24, 2012 by pramit

[Mishagal 19]

 

This is pretty abstract but let's think that all the possible events can be presented as branches like in this picture from many-worlds interpretation wikipedia page File:Splittings-1.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. In Ever17 Takeshi and Coco can't be saved from the bottom of the sea without the help of Blick Winkel, and to "awaken" him it was required to trap him for the 2nd time in LeMU. In that paradox world where everyone was happy, BW wasn't trapped for the 2nd time so Takeshi and Coco couldn't live either. In other words, that branch (look at the picture) "died" because one of the previous divergence points (2nd time in LeMU) became impossible and thus all the following events couldn't occur -> paradox.

 

So IMO the producers of Ever17 did it just right.

 

[pramit 22]

This is pretty abstract but let's think that all the possible events can be presented as branches like in this picture from many-worlds interpretation wikipedia page File:Splittings-1.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. In Ever17 Takeshi and Coco can't be saved from the bottom of the sea without the help of Blick Winkel, and to "awaken" him it was required to trap him for the 2nd time in LeMU. In that paradox world where everyone was happy, BW wasn't trapped for the 2nd time so Takeshi and Coco couldn't live either. In other words, that branch (look at the picture) "died" because one of the previous divergence points (2nd time in LeMU) became impossible and thus all the following events couldn't occur -> paradox.

 

So IMO the producers of Ever17 did it just right.

 

 

the many world hypothesis solves the grandfather paradox by making them(the two worlds) completely separate from each other. So, if you kill your grandfather you will still exist in that branch of the universe as the person who time traveled(the you which was not supposed to exists, exists in the world you time traveled from because its completely separate from yours). This is basically what i wanted to argue. Time paradox does not exist in many world interpretation. To put this in your pictures means having the branches separate from each other, hence the branches won't "die".

 

 

[pramit 22]

 

i felt like bumping this. The problem exists with every fiction that uses time paradox and one/hybrid of the proposed interpretations of quantum mechanics. This bugs me to no end, why do you have to use the concept of time paradox on a model that was made to solve time paradox. I wonder if anyone else ever asked a question like this to time travel fiction writers that uses time paradox. Well, not that it matters, its a fictional settings and they are free to make whatever up...however, do you think this can constitute a plot hole? I wouldn't have had any problem if they made up their own interpretation, but they didn't(or did they? ).

 

 

anyone else wants to join the discussion? 1 response is hardly satisfying

Edited November 24, 2012 by pramit

[saburokreamer 10]

Some things can be explained with ''cure syndrome'' from Never7

''cure syndrome'' is the origin of ''cure virus'' but is not the same.

 

 

Main cast getting inmortality with amateur metods at first try, when a powerful pharmaceutical company could't get it.

 

and

 

The summoning of blick winkle

 

 

also, about the question

 

You was affected recently by cure syndrome when BW appeared to her and explained his existence, in the fake world, BW didn't told her about him, only about Takashi and Koko, so BW can't exist in this timeline, so the paradox is created and the world is erased

 

[pramit 22]

Some things can be explained with ''cure syndrome'' from Never7

i haven't read Never7, but i plan to

 

Some things can be explained with ''cure syndrome'' from Never7

''cure syndrome'' is the origin of ''cure virus'' but is not the same.

 

 

Main cast getting inmortality with amateur metods at first try, when a powerful pharmaceutical company could't get it.

 

and

 

The summoning of blick winkle

 

 

also, about the question

 

You was affected recently by cure syndrome when BW appeared to her and explained his existence, in the fake world, BW didn't told her about him, only about Takashi and Koko, so BW can't exist in this timeline, so the paradox is created and the world is erased

 

 

to repeat what i've said in a previous post...paradox is not possible with many world interpretation. If you go to the past and shoot yourself, do you cease existing? no..at least not if your following many world interpretation. The two worlds are separate.

 

since causes happen before effect, how did they summon BW in the first place(or rather, how did BW summon himself)? since i don't have a answer, i assume it was just a random encounter or he came to save coco(which begs the question, for what reason would he choose THAT day instead of the day coco actually died, but that is not important).

 

1)so BW comes to save coco, and to do so he needs to go to the past.

2)he goes to the past and saves her, in a alternate timeline. No paradox happens so the events following the paradox do not happen either. Because effect does not happen before the cause

3) In one timeline, coco is dead, and in the other, saved by BW

This is basically the gist of my argument.

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2012 by pramit

[saburokreamer 10]

 

More than summoned, BW was created by You (and kaburagi) Cure sindrome, You KNEW that that he would appear and when, that was the reason why he appeared.

In a paralel timeline were his existence was never know by anyone he can't exist, even if he can travel there, all he do would be denied by the reality.

 

Or something like that.

[someguy withaname 10]

I tried understanding Ever 17 at first, I really did, then I started the true ending and I remember thinking wth! is going on. Every theory I had was completely blown by the first 4 hours. I figure there are some things mankind was never meant to fully understand.

[mechgouki 10]

Okay, this is assuming that I remembered Steins Gate and Ever 17 correctly.

 

The theory given, supposedly from John Titor, is that there are time splitting (possibility A, and possibility B, etc), and these timelines will eventually form a convergence, towards one common timeline. I don't think it was an alternate reality explanation.

 

In the instance where you shot your grandfather, you no longer exist in that part of reality. Should you go back, you're in a reality where your grandfather wasn't shot.

 

On wikipedia, there was a theory based on Niven's law.

Quote:

Suppose it is easy to send messages to the past, but that forward causality also holds (i.e. past events determine the future). In one way of reasoning about it, a message sent to the past will "alter" the entire history following its receipt, including the event that sent it, and thus the message itself. Thus altered, the message will change the past in a different way, and so on, until some "equilibrium" is reached--the simplest being the situation where no message at all is sent. Time travel may thus act to erase itself (an idea Larry Niven fans will recognize as "Niven's Law").

 

Of course, these are just theories. Because they've never actually happened.

 

I have a very very simple theory about time travel of my own. IT CANNOT HAPPEN, PERIOD. In simple terms, the same matter or the same energy cannot exist as more than one instance in the same timeframe.

 

Matter and energy can neither be created from nothing or destroyed into nothing. To suggest that an object could travel through time, is to suggest that matter can spontaneously disappear from a certain timeframe, and be spontaneously created into a certain time frame.

 

Of course, that's just my stupid theory. Ignore it if you think it's silly.

[iLoveTsundere 10]

Thats assuming that when you travel back in time your existence (as an entity) ceases to be in your own time to be in another. What if youre simply duplicated? what if in your time another "you-that-isnt-you" (another possible branch of your reality) is created for whatever reasons it be , and the "you-that-you-are" (you as in your own consciousness) travels in time? you cant dismiss anything.

Edited December 16, 2012 by iLoveTsundere

[mechgouki 10]

Thats assuming that when you travel back in time your existence (as an entity) ceases to be in your own time to be in another. What if youre simply duplicated? what if in your time another "you-that-isnt-you" (another possible branch of your reality) is created for whatever reasons it be , and the "you-that-you-are" (you as in your own consciousness) travels in time? you cant dismiss anything.

 

I suppose if you believe copy and pasting of matter is possible, perhaps that might work.

 

Anyway, you didn't quote anyone, so who's message were you referring to?

[pramit 22]

Okay, this is assuming that I remembered Steins Gate and Ever 17 correctly.

 

 

The theory given, supposedly from John Titor, is that there are time splitting (possibility A, and possibility B, etc), and these timelines will eventually form a convergence, towards one common timeline. I don't think it was an alternate reality explanation.

 

In the instance where you shot your grandfather, you no longer exist in that part of reality. Should you go back, you're in a reality where your grandfather wasn't shot.

 

On wikipedia, there was a theory based on Niven's law.

Quote:

Suppose it is easy to send messages to the past, but that forward causality also holds (i.e. past events determine the future). In one way of reasoning about it, a message sent to the past will "alter" the entire history following its receipt, including the event that sent it, and thus the message itself. Thus altered, the message will change the past in a different way, and so on, until some "equilibrium" is reached--the simplest being the situation where no message at all is sent. Time travel may thus act to erase itself (an idea Larry Niven fans will recognize as "Niven's Law").

 

Of course, these are just theories. Because they've never actually happened.

 

I have a very very simple theory about time travel of my own. IT CANNOT HAPPEN, PERIOD. In simple terms, the same matter or the same energy cannot exist as more than one instance in the same timeframe.

 

Matter and energy can neither be created from nothing or destroyed into nothing. To suggest that an object could travel through time, is to suggest that matter can spontaneously disappear from a certain timeframe, and be spontaneously created into a certain time frame.

 

Of course, that's just my stupid theory. Ignore it if you think it's silly.

 

 

1) yea, but i talked about ever17 too(where we didn't have such a clear explanation).

2) regarding the "you no longer exist in reality", i don't understand it at all. As long as there is a observer, you exist.

3) Regarding Niven law..well..i don't really agree that time travel will act to destroy itself. Information cannot be destroyed..that is a fundamental. Further, both in steins gate and ever17 the observer was a living being. I don't agree with that, and that is why i have some disagreements with steins gate true end where okabe plays that trick on the universe. The environment is the observer. Niven is a science fiction writer..i think you should watch some Machio KaKu video's(the ones on string theory, multi universe,time travel) on youtube. Also, this video explains how you can visualize dimensions

 

4) I believe time travel is possible if string theory succeeds(which means a success of multi-dimensions theory). What do you mean, same matter cannot exist in one specific timeframe? What is going to happen when extra energy comes into this universe? imo, nothing. Energy is fixed yes, but that does not necessarily mean the universe will explode when energy comes from another universe or the matter will self destruct. Matter and energy is constant because of the big bang

6) Matter and energy in question is not being destroyed, it is simply being transferred from one universe to another

 

ultimately, this is all speculation, especially for lesser minds like you and I. It may not be long before experiments conducted(like in the LHC) bring us the proof we need..or the opposite happens and we have to start over again.

 

Edited December 16, 2012 by pramit

[iLoveTsundere 10]

I suppose if you believe copy and pasting of matter is possible, perhaps that might work.

 

Anyway, you didn't quote anyone, so who's message were you referring to?

 

I was refering to you , sorry forgot to quote and just replied lulz. Anyways yea , maybe that is possible , or it just isnt possible all together , one has to evaluate all probabilities after all.

[mechgouki 10]

1) yea, but i talked about ever17 too(where we didn't have such a clear explanation).

2) regarding the "you no longer exist in reality", i don't understand it at all. As long as there is a observer, you exist.

3) Regarding Niven law..well..i don't really agree that time travel will act to destroy itself. Information cannot be destroyed..that is a fundamental. Further, both in steins gate and ever17 the observer was a living being. I don't agree with that, and that is why i have some disagreements with steins gate true end where okabe plays that trick on the universe. The environment is the observer. Niven is a science fiction writer..i think you should watch some Machio KaKu video's(the ones on string theory, multi universe,time travel) on youtube. Also, this video explains how you can visualize dimensions

 

4) I believe time travel is possible if string theory succeeds(which means a success of multi-dimensions theory). What do you mean, same matter cannot exist in one specific timeframe? What is going to happen when extra energy comes into this universe? imo, nothing. Energy is fixed yes, but that does not necessarily mean the universe will explode when energy comes from another universe or the matter will self destruct. Matter and energy is constant because of the big bang

6) Matter and energy in question is not being destroyed, it is simply being transferred from one universe to another

 

ultimately, this is all speculation, especially for lesser minds like you and I. It may not be long before experiments conducted(like in the LHC) bring us the proof we need..or the opposite happens and we have to start over again.

 

 

1) This is what I remember from Ever17. NO ONE actually traveled through time. A being from a higher dimension, in the form of a consciousness, was able to do that. "It" didn't physically exist in the third dimension, and can freely travel through time itself without affecting anything.

 

2) I do not know very much about the observer theory, only that it was in Blazblu, sorry.

 

3) Niven's Law have nothing to with observers. I do not understand why you brought it up. Either way, I wasn't the person who wrote that theory. But I believe in the logic he explained.

 

4) I never mentioned anything about the universe being destroyed etc. I said time travel cannot happen, period. It is no more possible for an object in the 3rd dimension to travel through time than it is possible to create an object out of absolutely nothing.

 

I understand that my theory is greatly simplified, compared to the many who have came up with their own profound theories with regard to time travel. I have no doubt that they will argue about it, and laugh at it should I even bring it up.

 

But the fundamental fact is that none of us can be proven right, because it has never been done. So we can sit here and argue about it all we want, but it changes nothing.

 

My theory is simple. Objects in the 3rd dimension cannot exist outside of this dimension. My theory has nothing to do with many worlds theory. I am referencing this current world, the world that I am in. Objects in this current world, or existed in this current world, cannot travel through time in this current world. If parallel universes exists, or if the 5th dimension exists, I do not care, because it is not relevant to my theory.

 

My theory is simple. Time travel is simply not possible.

 

Ultimately, this is my theory. If you don't like it, feel free to come up with your own theory.

 

None of us can be proven right. Better men than us have tried.

 

P.S.

I noticed a fundamental flaw in Steins Gate. Basically, he traveled through time, twice, to the exact same time destination. The second time he time traveled, he should have seen a previous version of himself who time traveled the first time. But no, it was like the first time travel never actually happened.

 

Edited December 17, 2012 by mechgouki

[Nonononoki 10]

Just started Ever 17 aaaaand... ALL my saves were deleted xD

 

So I wanted to ask you guys if someone can upload their save folder for me (I was at Coco's route (dammit!))

[iLoveTsundere 10]

 

1) This is what I remember from Ever17. NO ONE actually traveled through time. A being from a higher dimension, in the form of a consciousness, was able to do that. "It" didn't physically exist in the third dimension, and can freely travel through time itself without affecting anything.

 

 

Blick Winkle , even if it is a "being from a higher dimension in the form of a consciousness" , is STILL a character. That character was able to time travel. Ergo when you say "NO ONE actually traveled through time" is false. With his power , Hokuto went back in time with him and resurected Takeshi through Hokuto's sheer willpower of wanting his father alive.